Killer Earth
Killer Earth
The Angels Landing Trail
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Kat and Vanessa cover the treacherous Angels Landing trail in Utah's Zion National Park.
Find us on Facebook, @killerearthpodcast on Instagram, and @KillerEarthPod on Twitter.
Email us your natural disaster and animal attack survival stories at killerearthpodcast@gmail.com.
Earthquake, lightning, boring, rain, tornadoes, nommies in a hurricane.
SPEAKER_04Killer.
SPEAKER_00Good evening, cat. Good evening, V. See, we do say our names.
SPEAKER_02Well, we do, but we don't say, we don't like introduce ourselves officially.
SPEAKER_00Do we have to do that every podcast?
SPEAKER_02No, I guess. Every podcast. Every episode. It's our podcast. We don't care what you think.
SPEAKER_00We don't care if you don't know our last names, even though it's in every bio description, all of them.
SPEAKER_02Um, I like to do it just in case you're you're coming on for the first time and you stumble upon the episode. Um, but we like to be formal.
SPEAKER_00You you like tuxedo if you could.
SPEAKER_02Ew. I do not. I'm in like my PJs every episode. I do this. And I've been in my PJs for months. Um cool. Well, I'm Catherine Gifford.
SPEAKER_00I'm Vanessa Hill.
SPEAKER_02And welcome to our podcast uh covering how Mother Earth can kill you.
SPEAKER_00It can kill you when you least expect it.
SPEAKER_02Yep. So maybe you'll learn something from our episodes that might save your life one day.
SPEAKER_00I feel like our this podcast is gonna cause people to become agoraphobic and never leave their homes because really just present a lot of different scenarios. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But you know, as long as you're prepared and you're educated, it it could be still something you might be interested in doing or experiencing. And some of the things we're covering you never want to experience.
SPEAKER_00So right. But oh, you mean like we're giving people tips on how to survive inadvertently? Like it's not the thing, but we are. Yeah. Yeah. I yeah, that's that's true.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So I today I'm going to cover um one of the most dangerous hikes in the United States, and it's called Angel's Landing in um Zion National Park in Utah. So I got my sources um for my story um from Angel's Landing Advice for the Chain section, um, Zion National Park, and it's by America's Parks, and it's on YouTube. It's a really great video if you want to visually see what's going on up there. Um, personally, it made me like want to cry and quiver and never go anywhere near trail.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00It was very scary. I've never heard anyone use that word in that context.
SPEAKER_02Um, okay. Um, the other sources, um, downthettrail.com. Um, I interviewed my sister, who just recently went there. Um, Portland W G M E at the news station here in Maine. Um, or one of them. Uh, thespectrum.com, the Salt Lake Tribune, the Desert News, um, the Los Angeles Times, and Nationalparktraveler.org.
SPEAKER_00So many sources. You're so good and thorough.
SPEAKER_02I just have to make sure because there's a there's a lot of different things going on in this hike.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So a little bit of information about this hike. Um, again, it's in uh Zion National Park in southwestern Utah. And I I will say it is so beautiful there. I've never been um definitely on my list to go um and check it out. Um, it has so many cliffs and canyons and colors, and it's just amazing. Um, Angels Landing is a hike within um Zion National Park. Um, and it actually used to be called Temple of Alias. Um A-E-O-L-U-S. Wait, how do you spell that? A A-E-O-L-U-S. A-O-S A-O-L. Maybe a-olus, yeah. But that's what you yeah, it used to be called that, but now it's called Angels Landing. Okay. Um, and it's a 1,480-foot tall rock formation. Um, a trail was cut into the solid rock in 1926, and it leads to the top of Angels Landing and provides amazing views of um Zion Canyon. Um, the trail of Angel's Landing is five point miles long uh round trip, which um with the approximate an approximate 1500 feet in elevation game. Um, gain, not gain. Hike time um to hike it is three to five hours. Like if you're you know speedy and in hiking, you'll make it in three. But for me, it'd take 12 hours.
SPEAKER_00No, you're like a hiker. You I feel like you hike up ladders on sides of mountains.
SPEAKER_02Okay, let's get this straight. That happened because I was stuck on a mountain and I was dying, and I had a panic attack, and I didn't know what to do. So I just like had to like go up the ladders and finish it.
SPEAKER_00But the point is, you did it.
SPEAKER_02I don't know how, I really don't know how. Um, that's my thing is like I'm like I'm terrified of heights, but I that was part of my therapy for myself this summer was okay, let's face your fear, let's go and hike some mountains. So the first one absolutely traumatic. It was like blueberry mountain in Maine. It was so easy, I'm sure, for everybody else, but for me, I I was dying. And I had um three of my family members there, and they really helped me like get through it. And by the time I reached the top, I was like, wow, this is amazing. And I did that mountain because I wanted to climb Tumbledown Mountain in Maine, which has a lake on the top of the mountain. Crazy. It's so beautiful. But I was like, they were like, okay, this mountain's way harder than the one you did before. So I was like, yeah, let's do it. I actually felt better about that mountain. I was still really scared at points, but I, because I had done the previous one and made it, I was like, Oh, I can do this one. Then I decide to do a hike in um Bar Harbor with my husband. And I was like, I already did a really awesome mountain. Let's go to a harder one. Yeah, that was terrifying. Yeah. Like I don't know, but I made it. I was really happy, but I remember I was shaking by the time I got down just for like an hour.
SPEAKER_00Um the thing is, like having a fear of heights, I feel like that's helpful because it keeps us away from things that we could fall off of. Like it's it's cool to like hike and you know be out in nature, but I I don't know. I never felt like having a fear of heights was something you had to like get over.
SPEAKER_02I feel like it's the panic when you when you look down, and you're not supposed to look down, especially if you're afraid of heights, but it's really hard for me not to. It's kind of like obsessive compulsion to like keep looking down, and I don't I don't know why I do it. And I also start to feel really dizzy, which is really dangerous because I'm so anxious.
SPEAKER_00My cousin has a fear of heights. Maybe it's like a type of fear of heights where you feel the urge to jump.
SPEAKER_03Oh my god, I have that too. Yeah, yeah. I didn't want to say it because it sounds so it's beepy.
SPEAKER_00It's not suicidal, and I know you're not either it's like you have this weird urge where your brain is like suggesting to you that you should jump. Yes. Yeah, it happens.
SPEAKER_02Oh, it's so weird, and it doesn't happen to me all the time, but like that's I can't even get near the edge because if I'm too close, I have that weird thing. That or I'm just gonna like pass out and fall over. Yeah. But I have thought of that before, and I I I know that's a thing, but it's like really like weird to say it out loud.
SPEAKER_00And you're not going to, nobody I don't think anybody is going to jump, but the no the thought is in your brain when you're in that situation, and it's pretty difficult or uncomfortable. What is it called?
SPEAKER_02Do you know what that's I don't know what it's called?
SPEAKER_00I just heard you know, people that I a couple of people like my cousin uh tell me about it. It has to be called something like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's in the same way. Like I knew this. Um, I had a professor in college who said she was a psychologist. She had a patient who was a hairdresser and she had like an urge to stab people in the neck with the scissors, but she never would do that. Like she never actually would, but she was freaking out, so she put herself in therapy because she's like, I I like have this urge. And this is so off topic.
SPEAKER_02I'm so sorry, but no, it's like it's seriously something I feel like all of us have these weird thoughts like that. Yeah, like no one talks about them because they're so dark.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. Like, or like, are you ever with someone and you're like, they could just kill me right now?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they felt like it. I've thought about that, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Or I could just kill them. Yes, yes, but like you wouldn't, but you would never could.
SPEAKER_02I have to find out what this condition is called. I'm gonna look it up after this episode, and we'll next episode we'll we'll go because it really is a thing, yeah. With heights for sure, heights for sure, and that's that's again something I didn't want to say out loud, but I'm so glad you did because I've I've felt that before and it really creeps me out. It's like, why am I thinking this? Weird. Okay. Um, so this hike, Angel's uh landing, is the it's rate, okay. This is what bothers me. It's rated a class three out of five for difficulty. Um, and this um rating system comes from Yosemite um decimal system. Um, so uh the Yosemite decimal system is a three-part system used for rating the difficulty of walks, hikes, and climbs, primarily used by my uh mountaineers in the United States and Canada. It was first devised by members of the Sierra Club in Southern California in the 1950s as the refinement of earlier systems, um, particularly those developed in Yosemite Valley. I did I say Yosemite, it's Yosemite, so yeah, uh you were saying Yosemite.
SPEAKER_00Seminite. I was like, I'm thinking like Yosemite, like Mennonite, and Yosemite had a baby. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_02Yosemite Yosemite, okay, and um quickly spread throughout the new uh North America. So that's just some interesting way in how they rate the hikes. Um, the class five portion of the scale, so a class five is primarily a rock climbing classification system. So you're like hanging from ropes, and that you can't get me to do that if you wanted to. Um, one to two are used are used mainly in hiking and running trails. So they're like your hikes. Um, class three, which is what Angels Landing is rated. Um it's easy and moderate climbing. Um, example, scrambling with very amount varying amounts of exposure. So it has like a little bit of both, um, and a class for us in between ratings. So it's like an What does that mean?
SPEAKER_00Exposure.
SPEAKER_02So the like Angel's Landing, a lot of it's like nice little trails, and like it's uh you know, not very steep, and then all of a sudden you're like you have a foot wide path like on the side of the cliff. Yeah.
unknownDamn it.
SPEAKER_02That's scary. Um, so I found that interesting. Um, it roughly follows the so when the hike out start, when the hike starts, it follows the path of the Virgin River for some time along the West Rim Trail, slowly gaining gaining elevation and becomes sandy terrain. So have you ever seen those like really pretty pictures of those people with sticks hiking in the river? And it's like Zion.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think that's like the beginning of it. Like it's like one of the trails, but it that's how you get to the um Angels Landing. And then you have to go through the river, yeah. And then it becomes sandy. Um, and then most of the trail is uphill on the way up to Angel's Landing. Um, as the trail gets steeper and leaves behind the river, it becomes a paved trail. So that's pretty nice. Like, whatever. It's kind of like a sidewalk, so that's not bad. Um, then the trail goes through the area between Angel's Landing and the Zion Canyon. That is a gradual ascent. Um, but again, I did see some of these like sidewalks per se, or like paved um trails, and they were a little too close to the cliff for comfort sometimes for me, but they were wider. Okay. Um, so scout lookout is generally the turnaround point for those who are unwilling to make the final summit push to the top of Angel's Landing. You have to be a crazy bird. You have to be crazy. Uh these videos, I was again like just disoriented watching them. I mean, but the fact that people rated a three, I was like, no, am I just like not normal? Like, so like so many people climb this height. Okay, so it's generally the look, uh, the turnaround point, like I said, um, and you like you go to the summit. The last half mile of the trail is strenuous and lined with numerous sharp drop-offs on and narrow paths. So basically, there's like a chain that's attached to the ground, and then you like have to basically walk on on in most parts a foot wide from the cliff, and then the the drop down is like it's like thousands of feet down. So, what do you mean a chain? So that there's like poles that are like cemented into the rock, and then there's a metal chain, and that's the only thing you have to hold on to.
SPEAKER_00Oh, so you have something to hold on to, so that's that's good, sure.
SPEAKER_02I guess.
SPEAKER_00Um well, I mean, at least you you know you can grip something, okay?
SPEAKER_02But on most on a lot of these paths, even though you have your little chain, it drops down on both sides.
SPEAKER_00No, how how is that possible? It just does slides. That's dumb. Why would you do that? I don't even get that. Are you on like a bridge? What what what no?
SPEAKER_02It's like rock, it's like it's like part of the rock when you're on the way to the summit. You have drop downs thousands of feet on both sides, and you have this little scampery walkway with the chain. Okay, I will send you pictures uh for Instagram and Facebook. It's it's not okay. Um, so my sister Julie went and uh it's probably fine, but not for me. Um, so my sister Julie in uh went in 2019 in October with my sister Lauren and her boyfriend Brad. Um so she says you get up to the and Julie and Lauren and Brad are decent hikers. Like Julie goes hiking in California where she lives all the time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So it like doesn't bother her. Um, and she says you get up to the very top, which you think is the top, but then you're not there and have to go through these tiny pathways. You have to hold on to the chain, and the drop-off is, you know, on both sides. Um, in some places it was a foot wide, like I already mentioned. I'm just reading what she said, and you had to hold on to the chain. Um, and you know, some people were on their hands and knees because it was just so scary. She said it was the scariest hike she had ever done. And at one point she said she can't do this anymore, which is like again, Julie is brave.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And she was like, I can't do this, I'm not doing this. And Lauren and Brad like were like, okay, and they like went ahead, and then all of a sudden she just like did it because she had that like fight or flight thing, I guess. Um, she also said that she met so many stupid people on this mountain doing like handstands next to the cliff to get pictures for the gram, doing it for the gram. Doing it for the gram. She met this guy who was like on mushrooms and he told everyone he was on mushrooms, and then he did a handstand next to the cliff.
SPEAKER_00He is dumb, really. I don't like him.
SPEAKER_02No. Um, she was all just a she was also constantly mad at my sister Lauren because she was always next to the edge on everything.
SPEAKER_00I would be too, Lauren. Okay, get away from the edge.
SPEAKER_02When I hiked with Lauren this summer, she was so funny. She would she would just be like, Hold on, okay, I'll be right back. And her and her boyfriend would just leave the trail and run up these other cliffs with like no problem. And I was like, What do you what are you guys doing? I was like mad. I was like, Oh god, I'm so scared. Um, so if you want, so that was just some fun stories from that.
SPEAKER_00Um, also, can I just say though, if you're on a trail where you have to get on your hands and knees to get through it, maybe it's not the trail for you.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so the trail I went to in Bar Harbor, I was on my hands and knees, and people were like making I'm sure they were making fun of me because there's there was like 12-year-old boys like running past me, and I was like on my own.
SPEAKER_0012-year-old boys are the stupidest people on earth, just so you know.
SPEAKER_02Just because they they have that youth thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they're like, We can't die. Yeah, we can eat some cereal for dinner, like they're so stupid.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god. Okay, so if you want to be safer, if you want to be on the safer side, you need to get to the mountain early or go later um because the crowds are so bad. And again, um, like you it's so dangerous, and that's where a lot of people have died because there's very narrow passageways at a lot of the points. And if there's a slow hiker in front of you, people have tried to get around the slow hiker because they're faster and then fallen off. Wow. So it's like too crowded at some points, so like go earlier later. Um, and like don't mess with a slow hiker, just give them a chance.
SPEAKER_00Also, yeah, like don't cut in line because then you die. Yeah, you're rude, you're rude.
SPEAKER_02Um, okay, so now we're getting into the different accidents. So when I was like trying to find out exactly how many people have died at Angel's Landing hiking it, um, it's very the numbers are across the board, and it's not as many as you would think, but it's still a lot for a hike. So it's like 15 to 17 are the documented ones that I could find, but there could be like so many more. Um so on November 22nd in 2019, um, a 19-year-old girl named Savannah McTag McTeague McTaig um fell. And she's from Maine. Um, she was a Zion Concessions employee from Maine. Um, and she was found at the base of the trail. Um, she was with two other friends, but they reported her missing. So she was with friends and then she was gone. So they didn't see her fall. No. Um, other hikers who were there that day said conditions on the infamously steep and narrow trail were slippery. That's the other thing. So this was, I'm sorry, this was last year. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And then um April 2019, um, Pradeep Beryl Solomon, a 35-year-old resident from Salt Lake City, was hiking um and was reported missing Wednesday after failing to return home. Um, Solomon told friends Tuesday that he was going hiking in the park. Officials said uh the search began Wednesday afternoon near Angels Landing and continued till Thursday, and um, shortly before noon they found his body. The injuries Solomon sustained were consistent with that of a very high elevation fall, probably from the trail above, according to preliminary investigation.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that sucks.
SPEAKER_02Um, okay, so a 13-year-old girl from southern Utah was hiking. Um, and like this was kind of a common theme. Like, one of the investigators was in several different news articles for several different deaths. So he must be like one of the main like investigators when it comes to like angels landing deaths. Mm-hmm. Um, his his name was uh Marciano. Um, he was one of the investigators, and he said the girl was hiking with extended extended family and decided to turn back before they did. So they kept going. She turned around because she probably was being smart and was like, I'm not doing that.
SPEAKER_00Um also like that then she's alone. That just really. A bad decision. I know. And she was 13. Who lets their 13-year-old just be like, see uh in Zion National Park?
SPEAKER_02I wouldn't like that. No. Um, I don't know. She was hiking alone when she fell. So sad. Um, while investigators haven't found an eyewitness, multiple people reported hearing the fall just before 5 p.m.
SPEAKER_00Oh, they heard it.
SPEAKER_02They heard it. Um, the body was shortly discovered right after. And Marciano, again, again, the investigator said, I think we've done everything we possibly can. Every time there's an incident like this, we continue to investigate how we can make the trail more safe. Um, and right before this year is when they added the chains. So there weren't chains there.
SPEAKER_00Oh, well, that's an issue.
SPEAKER_02But there was still a trail, but there were no chains. So you had nothing. So they like tried to make it safer by adding the chains. But uh, Marciano said park staff will look at the circumstances surrounding the girl's death, um, such as how late it was at the time of the fall, or if there was ice on the trail, um, in evaluating further safety implication or implementations. So there's lots of factors when you're hiking that just are scary. Um in March 2019, uh Tate Ryan Volon Vallinia, uh V-O-L-I-N-O. Um, he was a 45-year-old man from Osprey, Florida. Um, he was hiking and he died after falling from Angel's Landing Trail. According to the National Park Service, hikers on the West Rim Trail came across um his body at about 8 20 a.m. Um on Friday. And then um 911 was called uh the traumatic injuries discovered on his body were consistent with a high elevation fall. So again, just a lot of people are not there falling, and it's awful.
SPEAKER_00Are there signs at the beginning of this hike that are like multiple people have fallen to their deaths that were just trying to hike?
SPEAKER_02I'm sure there are. Um, I I know that it's like advertised like you know, this is this can be really dangerous because it's like a national park that would be dumb if they didn't have any signs, but who knows? Right. Um, this is crazy and I can't imagine it. Um, in August 2009, a lady named Nancy Maltes, who was 55, was at the top of the Angels Landing Trail with her husband and three children, ages 14 to 20, when she fell off the vertical sandstone cliff in front of them. Oh, in front of them, in front of her kids and husband. So she probab she was too close to the edge. Um, repr it said preliminary reports said that she stumbled, like she just tripped and fell. What? Um, so I can that's like my worst fear. Um, I know I did I definitely have a fear of falling as well as um I actually have an acquaintance who like it it never left me because it was just so devastating. But um I guess her and her husband, um, or maybe it was her fiance. This is like 20 years ago, we're at a party and um he was drinking and somehow tripped and fell off the roof right in front of her and died. Oh my god, it's so scary. Like, just don't be next to edges, people.
SPEAKER_00Remember at our old office, people would go up on the route. We had a rooftop deck at our old office that where Kat and I we used to work together, and drunk people would it would get so close, and Vanessa and I would yell at them so much.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, I mean, people are so reckless with um okay, and then um Barry Goldstein, age 53 from St. Louis, Missouri. Um, he was traveling with a group of family and friends when witnesses said rocks he was standing on near the edge gave way. Oh god. That's my other fear of hikes is erosion. Even if I'm on a trail and I'm even like not that close to the edge, like what if that piece of land just gives way? And that's what happened to this guy.
SPEAKER_00Even when you're walking like on the beach and you're walking over rocks and there's an uneven rock, yeah, you feel super kind of disoriented for a few seconds. Imagine being on like a cliff.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, that's not cool. Um, and then Goldstein's daughter was like right there, and she was standing near him when he fell. And and she said, All I know is he slipped on a rock or something, and momentum grabbed him as he started to fall and plummet or fell off. Like she was just it happened so fast, but people assumed it was like the rock he was standing on just gave way. Um, she said, I'm so sad, I'm so confused and sad. We live in St. Louis uh Louis, and he was there for a wedding tomorrow, and the family were all together. I hope he wasn't scared and wondered if he had lost conscious before he hit the ground.
SPEAKER_00No, he probably was scared, and there's no way he lost consciousness. Well, maybe you black out that's I'm not trying to be, I'm not trying to be like oh I know wet blanket here, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02No, I I'm just curious about that. Like, is there some kind of blackout that you do go through when you fall like that? I think so. Maybe I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I think you're pretty aware. Oh, I don't like that. I feel like adrenaline takes over and makes you more alert because your body know, you know, you're you're dying. Yeah. Danger. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, okay, so this freaks me out. And um again, I'm not here to judge people, but this is kind of one I cat.
SPEAKER_00Who are you kidding? We are here to judge people. That's all we do on this podcast is judge people. People that have died in horrible things. We're like, really? That's the choice you made. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Sorry, it's just this one's a little crazy. Um, the mother of a 14-year-old boy who fell to his death during a Boy Scout troop outlying or outing in Zion National Park has filed a lawsuit claiming poor planning and a lack of adult supervision led to the accident.
SPEAKER_00So as a file it against.
SPEAKER_02Um, she filed it against. I'll let me just finish the story and then I'll we can Okay, sorry. Um, no, no, it's okay because I did write it down. Um, reports from the Washington County Sheriff's Office said another scout had bet Um Christopher, the guy who passed away, five dollars to crawl out onto this ledge and scratch his name into the side of the cliff. So it's like this other boy that's like, I'll give you five dollars if you go do that. And he's like, Okay, you know, because he's like 14. Um, a witness took photographs of uh shortly before the accident that show several boys standing on a ledge behind Christopher. He told police he saw the scouts running and jumping around between rocks without any adult supervision. Although he told them to be careful, he said his warnings went unheeded, like the the Boy Scout leader, I guess, who took them there. Um, park authorities said the boys were hundreds of feet off the trail near the summit when Christopher fell. According to the report, Christopher was about six feet from the nearest scout and was scooting along a steep slope when he lost his footing. So they ended up suing the Boy Scouts of America. Which they should have. I just don't know as a Boy Scout leader that I would be like, hey guys, let's go climb one of the most dangerous hikes, especially for 14, you know, for a bunch of rank boy rambunctious, like young boys.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, let's bring a bunch of teenage boys who don't know how to behave anyway on a super dangerous hike where plenty of people have died. Also, are the Boy Scouts even still a thing? I thought they were disbanded. No, they're a thing. Still, there were like mass, like sexual assault molestation issues. There probably is, but not related to this, but um yeah, yeah. No, I mean, if you're you're an adult, you're with a group of minors, it's your fault if one of them dies. I don't care. Yeah, he didn't get struck by lightning, like he was horsing around and you were not keeping him in line.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and just that hiking choice again. Maybe I'm just being, you know, an older adult that's like terrified of everything. But but um, yeah, so I just I would never if I was the leader, I would have never taken him on that hike. But also, you know, um now that we're like older, how old was 14 again? What what was that like eighth grade?
SPEAKER_00That's like freshman year of call of college of uh high school.
SPEAKER_02Oh, it is. I was a yeah, so they should have been old enough to do the hike. When I see 14, I think, oh my god, that's so young, but it's maybe you know it is young, but you're like a freshman in high school, you're just out of eighth grade, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Like you're stupid still. Um you know, yeah. I I just yeah, that doesn't seem like the ideal hike to take, you know, guys going through puberty. Yeah. Or you know, not mature enough to handle how dangerous it is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a really just bad situation. And poor guy, he just wanted five dollars. Um, and it'd probably be cool. Okay, also there's um the reason like a lot of these death tolls were like hard to find, is that some of them are like murders. What? And weren't considered like accidental deaths.
SPEAKER_00Oh, so it's a great place to kill your spouse, is what you're saying. Of course, yeah. Why not? I feel like that's the new trend.
SPEAKER_02It is, and it happens like a lot. And um I couldn't, I actually did a lot of time trying to Google this, but I was like, Oh, it's not a murder podcast, but I still found it interesting because it's so easy to like accidentally die, so it'd be really easy to get away with murdering somebody.
SPEAKER_00I mean, it sounds like all you have to do is breathe on someone and they fall off a cliff on this trail.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Um, so this quick story there's a story in May of 1997 where a man was accused of pushing his wife, uh Patricia Borderini, 36 of Medford, New Jersey, from a cliff in Zion in Zion. Um, sometimes the case is attributed to Angel's Landing, but the incident the incident actually took place along the observation point trail. So, but it's in the same vicinity. Um, James Borderini was ultimately acquitted of the charges, but the notion of such incidences is not improbable as you may think. And then there's just a lot of other um crazy stories to read about, like you could Google the one in 2012 at Rocky uh Mountain National Park. Um, there was one in 2013 where a woman pushed her husband into Glacier National Park. Um, and then finally the classic story of serial killer Robert Spangler pushing his wife at the Grand Canyon, which I know about that one.
SPEAKER_00He was a serial killer who also killed his wife.
SPEAKER_02I I think he, yeah, and serial can be more than two, I believe, people. So I think he killed his other wife.
SPEAKER_00Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02Maybe he killed both wives. I mean, yeah, that's a convenient way to get rid of someone because life is life insurance is how they usually do it on ID TV, you know.
SPEAKER_00Never get okay. If you if you have life insurance, don't tell anybody. Yeah, don't tell anybody. Tell someone random who like would never want to kill you. Don't tell your spouse.
SPEAKER_02Yep, don't do it. Okay. Um, warning if you um it says do not hike Angels Landing if, and this is like a lot of it, this is common sense, but anyway, you don't like heights, so I'm never doing that. Okay. Um you don't like crowds of strangers. Check. Yep. You can't hike up and down 1500 feet of elevation and relative comfort, like meaning you're like injured or I could probably I could do it.
SPEAKER_00I could do that, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, don't hike if it's noon in July. Apparently, it's like super hot, and like that could be disorienting too. Um, you're not wearing shoes, which uh I think a lot of people don't hike if you're not wearing shoes. Thank you for that advantage. Well, you know, remember what I said about the people starting in the river? Yeah, it kind of makes sense because then your shoes are kind of wet if you didn't prepare. And then maybe you feel like you have a better grip with your bare feet.
SPEAKER_00That's that is sick. No, that's like a sick thing to think. Nobody hikes barefoot on a trail, unless they're like weird forest people.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I have I have felt before like sometimes more comfortable in like my own feet, not like hiking, but in situations.
SPEAKER_00What about um I mean, we always strapped on the old Tevas when we were gonna walk in the river growing up? That was what are those? I don't have a pair. Yeah, I can't believe you're from like I feel like that's like a like if you grew up in Texas running water shoes, Tevas are like thick soled like rubber sandals with like um oh yeah, I just velcro, like velcro um I just yeah, I I'm seeing what you're saying.
SPEAKER_02You know, I think my my sister has a pair of those.
SPEAKER_00They're like they're super durable, they're like what people use in the great outdoors. I'm not one of those people, so I can't so should I get some? They're like my friends, like we would we had them as kids, like you'd always wear your tevas, like we'd walk down the rivers and entertain ourselves that way.
SPEAKER_02I don't know if the soles of those are like grippy, are they really grippy?
SPEAKER_00They're grippy and they're thick, and like you're not gonna fall on anything. Okay, you can get over tevas. Oh, they're amazing. Like you can walk over slippery rocks, like you're nothing's gonna poke your feet. So I would think people would start with Tevas and then they would in their backpacks they would have you know, dry software. Some good hiking shoes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's smart. Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I can't believe you never had Tivas growing up. I feel like all nine 90s kids had Tevas if they lived in like an area where there was rivers to traverse.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but like Dallas didn't have that many rivers, it was more Austin area. Okay, and that's like three hours from where I grew up. Wow, they had like lakes, but not really. You for I you would love Tevas. I'm gonna get some. I think my sister had a pair and I was like jealous of them this summer.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_02And do they dry fast?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they're they're they're like the best shoe for people. Wear them in the o like like the little the beach where your family's house is would be perfect because it's very rocky. You could wear Kivas, you never feel a thing on your feet.
SPEAKER_02Okay, I'm totally getting those. Um, this is obvious, uh, but don't hike it if you don't have water. Um there were times so stupid, but you know, who knows? Um I and I run out of water very quickly when I'm hiking. Like, so I usually bring like five huge bottles, which is like a really heavy, but I go through them so fast.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I'd rather like not be without water, and then obviously always bring a snack, some kind of protein, because it's exhausting. And then it says, Don't go hiking if you have to poop. And I was like, why? Because, and I had to Google it, and it was because there's not a lot of places to go. I think there's like on this trail because you can go on this trail.
SPEAKER_00Like, to be fair, you can go wherever you want.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's kind of gross though, because it's so crowded. Do you know do you mind how much how much poop would you have to like it's just it would be too much? So there's two outhouses that like actually when they get emptied out, a helicopter comes and like pulls the shit up.
SPEAKER_00Oh god, because it's so hard to get to. Why can't you just go poop in the like wilderness?
SPEAKER_02Well, a lot of people do because like they have they gotta go, and but like again, that's pretty disgusting because then the whole trail would be covered with it with the amount of crowds.
SPEAKER_00You're saying specifically for this trail, if you have to like make sure you poop first before you go, exactly. Okay, I mean, I thought it was important because for someone like me, that would be like yeah, but it's not like a danger, you're not gonna get like sepsis if you have to hold your poop in for a hike, you can like shake your pants. You're like safety rule number three. Don't even attempt this hike if you have to poop.
SPEAKER_03What? Hey, I forgot this from a good time.
SPEAKER_00I'm thinking like there's gonna be some elaborate explanation about why you shouldn't have any like your colon if you like go to this altitude, and really it's like there's you just it's rude.
SPEAKER_01Oh man. Okay. Oh, you could wear a zipper. I probably would have to. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Um you did not leave your and like also like leave your drone in your car. Like, don't be an idiot and take your drone and try to get cool shots of Zion because you probably will die because you'll be so distracted.
SPEAKER_00Oh, and you're like, yeah, you'll walk off a ledge or yeah, because you're looking at your drone and not where you're going.
SPEAKER_02And it's I can't just like all just like all the videos in general, like, you know, people were like, please pay attention every single step you take, and then you should be fine, right? You know, yeah, as long as you don't get like disoriented. So that is the story or the stories of Angels Landing, one of the most dangerous hikes in the United States.
SPEAKER_00Well, you have convinced me never to do that hike, and you know, also, why do you think it's called Angels Landing?
SPEAKER_02Uh, probably because a lot of people have died in the angels there and send their their angels.
SPEAKER_00Because it sends them to the angels.
SPEAKER_02It didn't really tell me, but that's what, yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. Um yeah, so um I would I would do the hike like to scouts um that that place where they said it's a good turnaround. I think I would make it to that um spot before it gets like too crazy, and then I would I would have to turn around, but it would, I'd have to probably do it alone, and I don't want to go back alone either.
SPEAKER_00I think you and I could handle the hike and we could make it to the top. We wouldn't go close to the edge because we both have a fear.
SPEAKER_02You want to make you you would make it to the summit?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think we could do it.
SPEAKER_02No, you no, you know, you wouldn't. You have to see these videos. You don't think I could? You could probably. I can't.
unknownYou can't?
SPEAKER_02No, I I can't. And I'm not even explaining parts of the trail, they're just like holding onto the chain and like stepping with their feet going up, too. It's not just like flat the whole time, stepping with their feet going up. Yeah, it's kind of like you're repelling, but not backwards, like forwards.
SPEAKER_00You mean like climbing?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Stepping with your feet going up means like you're climbing. No, you know how you rappel down a mountain and you use your feet and you use like a rope to get down. You're like climbing up, holding onto a rope. You're holding up to a chain. A chain. Wait, yeah, but you're like back toward like the the cliff.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00I'll I'll send you some videos. No, that would be without a harness strapped in, that would be no harness carry for sure.
SPEAKER_02So that's why I wouldn't do it. Um, I would make it up again, like as far as I could, and then I would just turn around. Do you want to do that with me or would you still be able to do that?
SPEAKER_00One day, yeah, we'll go to Scouts Landing.
SPEAKER_02Would you would you leave me though? Or would you just like keep going up? Because you're like, I have to do this. No. Would you?
SPEAKER_00I would never leave you. I think that's lame. Okay. I would never leave you.
SPEAKER_02It's called Scouts Lookout. That's where you can turn around.
SPEAKER_00Oh, right. Angels Landing, Scouts Lookout.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00No, I wouldn't leave you. I think I would encourage you to keep going if we, you know, if I felt okay about it.
SPEAKER_02But again, I If I'm okay, then you would just have to die and suffer with me.
SPEAKER_00I we have the same fears. That's why we're doing this podcast. Like we we our fears align so perfectly. So we probably wouldn't be able to do it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, I'm sure we could do anything if, like. Yeah, but I'm not willing to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You know, also, like, I'm a mom. I know. That's the thing, you know. I have to survive. You have to survive for my daughter.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That changes that probably gives you so much more anxiety about all these things because you're a mom.
SPEAKER_00It's like it definitely does. But also, I think just getting older, and when you're in your 20s, you think you're invincible, and you know, then you get older and you have kids, and you're like, well, it would actually suck if something bad happened.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I know. I'm I'm wondering like if there if I can share that video as part of maybe videos too much to share, but I do have some original photos from Julie, but there is that video that really shows you some things about like how crazy it gets. Maybe we can share that insight.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we need a visual, we need a visual for sure. Yeah. Especially the part where there's a drop-off on both sides.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Julie. No, she didn't take one because she couldn't take one, or maybe Lauren did. I'm not sure. I have a ton of pictures though. Um, and then there's also so many pictures because again, it's like so highly photographed. Well, I had never heard of this, so really I will go there and I will try to do my best, but I I'm not gonna go to the summit. You couldn't pay me a million dollars. I'm not kidding. I would I would turn down a million dollars because I wouldn't be able to do it.
SPEAKER_00Tax-free.
SPEAKER_02Yep, wouldn't do it.
SPEAKER_00I think I'd do it.
SPEAKER_02Okay, can you split it with me then?
SPEAKER_00Could we get a sherpa? Yeah, you know, like a support person to I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Even with a sherpa, I'd just I'd probably just jump off.
SPEAKER_03Oh my god, okay. Like we talked about.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, you wouldn't.
SPEAKER_03I'd be so scared.
SPEAKER_00Uh well, that was enthralling, exhilarating, and eye-opening.
SPEAKER_03Well, thanks.
SPEAKER_02I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'm glad everyone maybe had learned something and definitely go check it out. I'm not dissing on all you hikers, but I'm dissing on the people like me who yeah, I'm not even dissing, I just don't care.
SPEAKER_00I'm just not doing it's you know, if you're brave enough to do it, good on yeah. Yeah, we're proud of you. We are so proud of you. Hey guys, thank you so much for listening to our Angels Landing episode. Um, we were originally going to record another part for this episode, but things don't always work out, and we decided not to. So that's the reason that there were no proper goodbyes um when we were recording. Um, but we'll be back with more episodes in the new year. Uh, find us on Facebook, um, on Instagram at KillerEarth Podcast, on Twitter at KillerEarth Pod, and email us any of your thoughts, feelings, feedback, survival stories. If you want to be on the podcast and talk to us about survival, uh, you can find us at killer earthpodcast at gmail.com. Okay, uh, see you all in 2021. Bye. Everybody says, what?